Marcos
Posted on Wednesday, 03 March, 2004 - 05:48 pm:

We have a sequence of continuous functions f1 , f2 , ... which converge pointwise to f. I want to show that for all (non-empty open) subintervals (of the domain) I and ε>0, I'I:x, yI'|f(x)-f(y)|<ε.

Is this correct:

I'll assume the opposite and derive a contradiction. So, there's an interval T and an ε such that T'T, x, yT'|f(x)-f(y)|>ε.

We work with x, y in this T.

We have the inequality |f(x)-f(y)|<|f(x)- fn (x)|+| fn (x)- fn (y)|+| fn (y)-f(y)| for all n. The LHS >ε (by our assumption), but the RHS can be made smaller than ε as fn f and fn is continuous (by choosing a large enough n).

Is that okay for a proof or have I gone wrong somewhere?

Marcos

P.S. Incidentally, I found some piece of torn up paper with notes from some old NRICH discussion where Ian, Dan and Michael (and probably others I've forgotten) tried to show me pointwise and uniform convergence. This was the only result left to tie up the discussion. (I never did say thank you so I'm saying it now!)

Michael Doré
Posted on Wednesday, 03 March, 2004 - 07:53 pm:

Hi Marcos,

I'm not sure I quite follow. How do you know that | fn (x)- fn (y)| tends to 0 as n?

Also... if you want to derive a contradiction then what you need to assume is that:

There's an interval T and an ε such that for any subinterval T' of T, _there exists_ x, y in T' s.t. |f(x)-f(y)|>ε. (*)

You can't assume that for all x, y in T', |f(x)-f(y)|>ε. I'm sure you meant to write (*).

Michael

Marcos
Posted on Wednesday, 03 March, 2004 - 09:49 pm:

Yeah that's what I did mean sorry. Ah damn I'd assumed y -> x which isn't necessarily the case. I'll go have a think about it again...

Marcos
Michael Doré
Posted on Thursday, 04 March, 2004 - 12:23 am:

Maybe I've misunderstood... aren't you fixing x and y as you let n?

By the way, even if x-y0 as n that doesn't necessarily guarantee that fn (x)- fn (y)0. This is because we're only told that fn are each continuous - we aren't told they are equicontinuous.

OK so as for how to tackle the problem... here are a few hints.

Like you say, we want to assume that the result is false and derive a contradiction. So we have an interval T and an ε>0 such that for any subinterval T' of T we can find x, y in T' such that |f(x)-f(y)|>ε. Needless to say that all the intervals mentioned here are supposed to be of positive length.

Intuitively what we know is that for any subinterval T' of T you can find points x, y for which |f(x)-f(y)|>ε. But we know that fn f. From this you should be able to show that for sufficiently high n then | fn (x)- fn (y)|>ε.

(If you find it easier to prove, you can replace the ε here with ε/2 or whatever - it really doesn't matter.)

Take n such that this is true. Since fn is continuous at x and y, we can find intervals Ix and Iy such that | fn (x')- fn (x)|<ε/4 and | fn (y')- fn (y)|<ε/4 for x' in Ix and y' in Iy . Note that if x' is in Ix and y' is in Iy then | fn (x')- fn (y')|>ε/2. This basically is because fn (x') is close to fn (x) and fn (y') is close to fn (y) but fn (x) and fn (y) are quite far apart so fn (x') can't be too close to fn (y'). To show the inequality formally, use the triangle inequality.

So what do we have... In words, for any subinterval T' then for sufficiently high n we can find subintervals Ix and Iy such that fn doesn't vary much on Ix or Iy , and the values fn takes on Ix are quite far apart from the values fn takes on Iy .

OK so that's one idea. But how does this help? Well our strategy is going to be to try and construct a point at which fn doesn't converge - because this will then give us our contradiction.

How do we get this point? Well we can't just choose some point x and hope to prove that fn doesn't converge at x - that would be far too much to hope for. What we want to try and do is to ''home in'' on some point, and in doing so prove that fn can't converge here.

Well here's one idea. Pick some interval I1 on which f1 doesn't vary much. Now find some subinterval I2 and an integer n2 such that f n2 doesn't vary much on I2 and what's more the values of f n2 on I2 are quite far apart from the values of f1 on I1 . Now find a subinterval I3 of I3 and an integer n3 > n2 such that f n3 doesn't vary much on I3 , and also the values of f n3 on I3 are far apart from the values of f2 on I2 .

And so on. Keep on going. We have nested intervals I1 , I2 , ... and a strictly increasing sequence n1 , n2 , ... such that the values f nr takes are quite far apart from the values f nr-1 takes, for each r. Now if you've chosen the intervals In sensibly they will have a point of intersection x. But it is very clear that f nr (x) cannot converge so fn (x) can't converge, which is a contradiction.

So anyway all you need is to be able to construct the intervals Ir (and integers nr ) such that everything works out. That's where the first hint comes in handy.

Please write back if anything is unclear in this sketch.

Michael

P.S. By the way, can you remember what thread this originated in? It might help to have some context.

Marcos
Posted on Thursday, 04 March, 2004 - 07:41 am:

It's here

Marcos
Michael Doré @ @ @ @ @
Posted on Thursday, 04 March, 2004 - 10:05 am:

Thanks!
Marcos
@ @ @ @ @
Posted on Sunday, 07 March, 2004 - 07:20 am:

Just one last question (I hope):
Do I need to find n1 ,... explicitly or just prove their existence? I'm just having a hard time getting any intervals with the properties we need to be nested . I don't know if that's because I'm trying to work out the numbers explicity.

Marcos
Michael Doré @ @ @ @ @
Posted on Sunday, 07 March, 2004 - 03:28 pm:

You just need to prove their existence. And yes, don't try and be too explicit about it. The best idea is to draw lots of pictures and convince yourself you could write it out formally if you had to.
Michael Doré @ @ @ @ @
Posted on Sunday, 07 March, 2004 - 04:31 pm:

Hving said that though, since my hints in both this thread and the previous one have been rather vague and disorganised, it may be best to have it written out formally once and for all in case others are interested.

We want to prove that if fn :IR are continuous functions (where I is a non-empty open interval in R), fn f and ε>0 then there is a non-empty open subinterval I' of I such that x, y in I'|f(x)-f(y)|ε.

(It really doesn't matter whether we have or < here since you could replace ε with ε/2. Also from now on all intervals will be non-empty and open - I won't bother to say this every time.)

Suppose not. Then there is ε>0 such that for every subinterval I' of I we can find x, y in I' with |f(x)-f(y)|>ε.

Claim: We can find nested intervals I= I0 I1 I2 (where AB means the interval A contains the interval B and they don't share endpoints) and integers 1= n0 < n1 < such that for each i1:


    (i) for all x, y in Ii we have f n1 (x)- f ni (y)|<ε/16
    (ii) for all x in Ii-1 and y in Ii we have | f ni-1 (x)- f ni (y)|>ε/8
Proof:

Set I0 =I. Suppose r0 and we can find I0 , I1 , ..., Ir such that (i) and (ii) hold for 1ir. It is enough to show we can pick Ir+1 Ir and nr+1 > nr such that (i) and (ii) hold for i=r+1.

From the hypothesis of the question we can find x, y in Ir such that |f(x)-f(y)|>ε. Since fn (x)f(x), fn (y)f(y) we can find an integer nr+1 > nr such that | fn (x)-f(x)|<ε/4 and | fn (y)-f(y)|<ε/4. Now by the triangle inequality we have:

|f(x)- fn (x)|+| fn (x)- fn (y)|+| fn (y)-f(y)||f(x)-f(y)|

so

ε/4+| f nr+1 (x)- f nr+1 (y)|+ε/4>ε

and

| f nr+1 (x)- f nr+1 (y)|>ε/2

Pick any z in Ir . We cannot have both | f nr+1 (x)- f nr (z)ε/4 and | f nr+1 (y)- f nr (z)|ε/4 since we'd then get by the triangle inequality:

| f nr+1 (x)- f nr+1 (y)|| f nr+1 (x)- f nr (z)|+| f nr (z)- f nr+1 (y)|ε/4+ε/4=ε/2

a contradiction.

So we have at least one of | f nr+1 (x)- f nr (z)|>ε/4 and | f nr+1 (y)- f nr (z)|>ε/4.

WLOG | f nr+1 (x)- f nr (z)|>ε/4.

Since f nr+1 is continuous at x and x is contained in Ir , we can find an interval Ir+1 of Ir such that for all x' in Ir+1 we have | f nr+1 (x')- f nr+1 (x)|<ε/16. WLOG Ir+1 doesn't share any endpoint with Ir .

For any z' in Ir we have | f nr (z')- f nr (z)|<ε/16 (since we agreed (i) holds for i=r). By the triangle inequality

| f nr+1 (x)- f nr+1 (x')|+| f nr+1 (x')- f nr (z')|+| f nr (z')- f nr (z)|| f nr+1 (x)- f nr (z)|

so:

ε/16+| f nr+1 (x')- f nr (z')|+ε/16>ε/4

hence:

| f nr+1 (x')- f nr (z')|>ε/8

for any x' in Ir+1 and z' in Ir .

So (ii) holds for i=r+1. (i) certainly also holds for i=r+1. So we have the claim.

Now pick intervals Ii and integers ni as in the claim. Let Ii =( li , ri ). Then li is a strictly increasing sequence and is bounded above by r1 , so li l for some real l.

Since, for any i, the sequence ii+1 , li+2 , ... is contained in Ii+1 , l is contained in [ li+1 , ri+1 ] which is contained in ( li , ri )= Ii . Hence l is a point in the intersection of Ii .

Now condition (ii) shows that for each i, | f ni-1 (l)- f ni (l)|>ε/8.

But if fn (l) was a convergent sequence then there would exist N such that n, n'>N| fn (l)- fn' (l)|<ε/8. If we pick nr >N then nr+1 >N so | f nr (l)- f nr+1 (l)|<ε/8 which is a contradiction.

Hence fn (l) doesn't converge for some l in I, which is a contradiction. So we're done.

Marcos
@ @ @ @ @
Posted on Sunday, 07 March, 2004 - 06:07 pm:

Ah neat! I had trouble finishing off the (sort of) induction although I'm glad to see I was on the right lines.
The triangle inequality is great! (even though I've yet to find a triangle with four sides)

Marcos
Michael Doré @ @ @ @ @
Posted on Sunday, 07 March, 2004 - 09:45 pm:

While the triangle inequality is useful for finishing off proofs, I think the best way to think of it is as being obvious. Usually you use the triangle inequality in the form:

|a-c| < = |a-b| + |b-c|

In analysis the usefulness of this is that if a is close to b and b is close to c then a is close to c - because if a is close to b and b is close to b then |a-b| is small, |b-c| is small so their sum is small, so |a-c| is small so a is close to c.

But that really is quite an obvious fact. If a is close to b and b is close to c then how can a be anything other than close to c?

I guess what I'm saying is that you shouldn't think of the triangle inequality as a tool which can, by itself, make substantial inroads into a problem. Usually what happens is that you build up an intuitive argument (e.g. by drawing lots of pictures) in which at some point you note that since a is very close to b and b is very close to c then a is very close to c. When you come to write it out formally later, you justify this step by the triangle inequality. So while the triangle inequality is certainly useful for dotting the i's and crossing the t's, I don't think it's anything more than that. The real insight comes from the pictures and the intuition, rather than the triangle inequality.

Others may disagree though.

Michael
Marcos
@ @ @ @ @
Posted on Monday, 08 March, 2004 - 11:41 am:

Yeah but that's just it. I couldn't get my ideas more rigorous than simple explanations, which is what the triangle inequality would've done had I used it. After all most analysis proofs (at this sort of level) are what one would call "obvious" but nonetheless, at least at this stage, it's important to be able to 'rigorify' an argument if someone gets really picky looking for holes in the 'obviousness'.

Marcos
Michael Doré @ @ @ @ @
Posted on Monday, 08 March, 2004 - 03:29 pm:

I'm not sure. I think the result we're discussing is not obvious (meaning there is no immediate intuitive reason why it should be true). In cases in which the proof follows immediately by the triangle inequality (for example the uniform limit of continuous functions is continuous) the result is indeed obviously true.

I'm certainly not knocking the triangle inequality, but am just saying that if you don't have an outline proof without the triangle inequality then the triangle inequality probably won't help much. The triangle inequality doesn't really buy you much insight, but it can be helpful in writing out the proof neatly.
Marcos
@ @ @ @ @
Posted on Monday, 08 March, 2004 - 04:37 pm:

Well I agree with whatever you say (I hope it didn't sound like I didn't in my previous post) and even if I didn't I should because you know best!

Marcos

P.S. I think the original theorem (perhaps you don't agree), ie. the pointwise limit of continuous functions is densely packed with points of continuity is fairly intuitive, in the sense that if you told me to guess at a theorem about limts of continuous functions I'd firstly say that the limit is continuous and then when you present me with a case where this doesn't hold I'd form a picture in my head of the *actual* theorem which is true. Perhaps you think this is cheating, but after all something is 'obvious' once you form a picture in your mind convincing you it's true based on your experience. (In this case the experience is the one function you show me which is a pointwise limit of continuous functions but not continuous)
That said, the additional lemmas you guided me through to get to this 'obvious' theorem were rather crafty I think as in my intuitive picture going this way round was different to what I expected the best way to tackle the problem would be. A case where intuition can get in the way of the actual substance possibly?

P.S.2 Excuse the long P.S!

Marcos
Michael Doré @ @ @ @ @
Posted on Friday, 12 March, 2004 - 11:42 pm:

You are right... one would probably expect the pointwise limit of continuous functions to be continuous on at least a dense set of points. What I really meant to say was that on hearing that statement, one doesn't have an immediate intuitive reason that can be converted into a proof (unlike with the theorem that the uniform limit of continuous functions is continuous). I think this is similar to what you're saying.

I wouldn't actually say intuition gets in the way. I think without intuition it is impossible to come up with proofs of anything except the most trivial of results. But maybe we're using the word intuition to mean different things. I don't use it just to mean everyday intuition or common sense. By intuition I mean one's thoughts and reactions after becoming thoroughly familiar with the problem. "Refined intuition" you might call it.

Anyway, I'm going to partially retract my statement about the triangle inequality. I still think that in problems like this, it is not really very important because we're only using it in a totally trivial way. We're basically using |a-c| < = |a-b| + |b-c| to show that "if a is close to b and b is close to c then a is close to c". This is really a pretty obvious statement, and if we couldn't prove it with the triangle inequality we'd easily find some other way to prove it.

In other situations though, the triangle inequality can be used to say more than this. In particular sometimes the actual quantative estimate you get from the triangle inequality is important.

This is especially true when you use it in the form:

|x0 -xn | < = sum from r=0 to n-1 |xr -xr+1 |

and then look at the limit as n-> infinity.

The simplest example of this is the proof of the contraction mapping theorem. I don't know if you're familiar with this. The theorem states that if (X,d) is a complete metric space and f: X-> X is a contraction, that is there exists l < 1 such that d(f(x),f(y)) < l d(x,y), then there exists unique x such that f(x) = x.

(If you don't know what a metric space is, it is basically a set with a distance d which is defined between every pair of points. This distance satisfies some basic properties including the triangle inequality. For a proper definition see here . This also defines a "complete metric space".)

The contraction mapping theorem is not too hard to prove - you may like to try and find a proof. But you do really need to use the triangle inequality. And you need it for more than just "if x is close to y and y is close to z then x is close to z" - you actually need to estimate the distance d(x,xn ) given all of d(x,x1 ),...,d(xn-1 ,xn ) where n is going to infinity.

In particular the proof would not go through if we were only told d(x,z) < = K(d(x,y)+d(y,z)) for some K, rather than d(x,z) < = d(x,y)+d(y,z). And yet the former actually does imply "if x is close to y and y is close to z then x is close to z", but that wouldn't be good enough.

So you're right - the triangle inequality is actually quite useful generally.

Michael
Marcos
@ @ @ @ @
Posted on Saturday, 13 March, 2004 - 09:17 am:

Nope I didn't know what a metric space is. Now I (sort of) do! I'll try see if I come up with anything for the contraction mapping theorem but firstly I need to read all the definitions and everything very carefully to make sure I understand them.

Marcos

P.S. May I also take back my statements, if I'm allowed to slightly change opinion, and say that I agree with your last post in the end. It's just that if you're not used to epsilon and delta (like me) it's those little technicalities that I find hard to do and maybe not so much getting my head round to coming up with an intuitive 'proof' of whatever the theorem is.