Michael McLoughlin
Posted on Saturday, 08 May, 2004 - 08:09 pm:

I am reading Yet Another Introduction to Analysis, on pages 9-10 it introduces the completeness axiom:

If L and M are non-empty sets and lm for all lL and mM, there exists a real number α such that αl for all lL and αm for all mM.

It then takes L={xR: x2 <2} and M={xR: x2 >2} in order to prove that 2 exists. My problem is mainly that I feel uneasy about the statement ' 2 exists' and was hoping for a convenient proof; instead, it appears to me that the completeness axiom has been invented in order to facilitate a proof. It was my understanding that axioms were meant to be blindingly obvious, so much so that they are impossible to challenge; however, it seems to me that the statement 'there exists a real number α' in the completeness axiom is not obvious. For it is one thing to say that one can get as close to α as you like, it is another to say that α exists. With 2, for example, one can talk about a sequence of nested intervals which have 2 in common, yet 2 can never be found and in which case, how can we say it exists? Would anybody be able to shed some light on this? Or, is this just a problem with my understanding that I am going to have to live with!

James Cranch
Posted on Saturday, 08 May, 2004 - 09:24 pm:

Well, the problem is, there are lots of things that are quite like the reals, but not the same. So there are two approaches:

- Construct the reals . This means, learn some set theory, then define the reals in terms of sets and suchlike.
This may appear an attractive option, but the reality is that it is dull, it requires a vast amount of prerequisites (and is thus pedagogically bad, insofar as if someone is familiar with set theory, they're usually also familiar with the real numbers), and it doesn't really aid your understanding of them.
It does, however, have the advantage that there can be no issues about what is "obviously true"... you don't care if it's obvious, you just care whether it works in your definition.

- Axiomatise the reals . This is what your textbook is doing. It's what most textbooks nowadays do. Unfortunately, since there are things that look a lot like the reals (like, for example, the rationals), some of these axioms are likely to be a little opaque.

So, what practical advice would I give? I think it helps a lot to play with this completeness axiom. If your textbook has exercises, do them. Even if you don't like it, you may get to grips with what it does and doesn't actually do.
Vicky Neale
Posted on Sunday, 09 May, 2004 - 11:54 am:

One thing I find quite helpful when I'm given apparently obscure things like this is to play around a bit and see what does and doesn't satisfy them. So it might be worth having a fiddle and seeing whether you can understand why the reals do and the rationals don't satisfy this axiom (along the lines of "there are holes in the rationals but the reals plug all the gaps").

Vicky
George Barwood
Posted on Sunday, 09 May, 2004 - 04:52 pm:

> It was my understanding that axioms were meant to be blindingly obvious, so much so that they are impossible to challenge;

Not only are the axioms not "blindingly obvious", a healthy level of scepticism about whether they are even consistent is ok.

One point though : there is not much point in wondering about whether *anything* exists, the important question is whether the axioms look ok from a consistency point of view.

Most people have some intuition about quantities that suggests that it is very unlikely that the axioms for the real numbers are inconsistent.

At the end of the day it's best not to worry. If the patterns are pleasant, that's enough.