Angelina Lai
Regular poster

Post Number: 46
Posted on Tuesday, 31 August, 2004 - 09:54 am:

Heya, someone from another forum has asked help on this, and I wondered whether anyone know about the warwick MORSE course (vaguely remember having a discussion quite a while ago):


quote:

Just wondering, has anyone looked or done this course, ive just come across it, and it seems like everything i like in one course.. too gud to be true

Maths-Operational Research-Statistics-Economics (MORSE), currently being taught at only Warwick!! 4 Year Course

I just wanted to know if it is "commendable" or known in the real world, i want to persue a career along the lines of an actuarist, charterd accountant or in investment banking

Let me know if you have done the course, or know something about it


Andre Rzym
Veteran poster

Post Number: 912
Posted on Tuesday, 31 August, 2004 - 04:02 pm:

I'm not familiar with the course (just what I have seen on the website), but a couple of thoughts occur to me:

(i) Being at university is a time to be savoured -you are about as free as you ever likely to be, an adult without the responsibilities. As such, I think it is important to be doing a subject that you like -otherwise you are condemning your 3-4 years before you start. The point is that if it sounds "too gud (sic) to be true" then perhaps it is for you irrespective of what employers think.

(ii) If you are trying to decide whether it is suitable for investment banking, I would suggest first trying to find out a little about the business so that you are able to distinguish between the different roles. The point is that if you want to be a "quant" (i.e. a mathematician for the trading business, also known as Derivatives Research) then you need a PhD. The PhD does not need to be directly related to finance -just something with lots of maths in. For other roles, a first degree is fine, and I think it is probably true to say that you will be neither prejudiced for or against with MORSE. The business is littered with mathematicians, physicists, chemists etc.

Andre
Emma McCaughan
Moderator

Post Number: 951
Posted on Tuesday, 31 August, 2004 - 04:35 pm:

The MORSE course is reasonably well-known, I think, and Warwick is good for maths.

Another thing to check is whether Warwick has any destination information for the graduates from the course.

I'd echo Andre's comment about going for it if it sounds like the course you'd most enjoy.
Anthony Ashton
New poster

Post Number: 49
Posted on Tuesday, 31 August, 2004 - 07:10 pm:

Andre, could I ask what bank you work at? I've been at CSFB over the summer, and have become interested in a few career paths. On the one side I fancy staying on at Cambridge and doing Part III and possibly doing a PhD, then aim for a job in quants. Or, apply for graduate training schemes and take the fast track route to becomming a trader (perhaps before or after Part III).

Any advice you can pass on would be much appreciated.

Anthony (about to start final year of Mathematics Tripos)

:-)
Andre Rzym
Veteran poster

Post Number: 914
Posted on Wednesday, 01 September, 2004 - 09:10 am:

What did you do at CSFB? Did you get a chance to `rotate' around the various businesses (FX, debt, equity, credit etc.)? Did you spend time with quants, traders & marketers? Did you have preference?

I've worked at JP Morgan mostly -now I work with a hedge fund.

Have you seen the article I wrote here a while ago? The point there about research lagging trading/marketing in terms of pay, possibly counterbalanced by greater job security may be relevant. Ditto starting off at a large respected institution.

Do I detect from your mail a sense that you feel that getting into a quant department is harder than getting into a job in trading ("aim for" versus "take the fast track")? I'm not sure whether that's true or not -it might be. Certainly, there are more traders than quants in the city. That said, there are far more potentially eligible candidates for the former than the latter (chemists, economists, physicists, mathematicians etc versus mostly maths/theoretical physics PhD's). And anyway, you succeeded in getting to Cambridge -why shouldn?t you succeed in getting the job you prefer?

Do please ask if there's anything more specific you would like to know.

Andre
Angelina Lai
Regular poster

Post Number: 47
Posted on Wednesday, 01 September, 2004 - 09:17 am:

Thank you guys, actually raising my own interest now. what exactly does a job in quants involve? financial research based on statistics? that's not the same as trading though, is it?
Andre Rzym
Veteran poster

Post Number: 915
Posted on Wednesday, 01 September, 2004 - 10:29 am:

Angelina: No, the quant role is not the same as trading. The job of the trader is to `warehouse risk': to take risk from a client who does not want it, to charge a fee for doing so, then managing the resulting risk. By `risk', I mean things like:
- the risk that interest rates rise or fall
- the risk that equities rise or fall
- the risk that foreign exchange rates move
- the risk that companies or countries default
- the risk that temperature reaches certain levels (e.g. 2-3 days of sub zero temperatures and water pipes start to freeze and water companies start losing money)

The job of the quant is (very roughly) to develop models that assess the value of the risk i.e. what the trader should charge. They do not approach problems from a statistical perspective, but rather from the perspective of `arbitrage'. It's rather like physics -one develops a model for the way things (prices) move and then deduces the value of a particular transaction given that model.

In fact, the simpler models of things called `options' lead to equations very similar to the equation for heat diffusion in physics -pretty much the only difference is that you need to change the sign of the time variable. If you are interested, try looking up "Black-Scholes" on the web.

Ask again if this makes no sense!

Andre
Anthony Ashton
Poster

Post Number: 50
Posted on Wednesday, 01 September, 2004 - 01:25 pm:

How deep does the Mathematics go Andre? I had a read through some of the training manuals used in a team called GMAG (Global Marketing & Analytics Group), and most of it seemed fine (black-scholes, bi/tri-nomial trees, barrier option pricing etc), although I got lost on one of the proofs involving some measure theory.

Is it worth specialising whilst doing Part II and Part III, or should I just stick with the things I enjoy (which don't really relate to the world of finance).

Cheers,
Anthony
Julian Pulman
Prolific poster

Post Number: 246
Posted on Wednesday, 01 September, 2004 - 01:25 pm:

I may inadvertantly met you, Anthony, I've been at Lehman Brothers over the summer and I met a few CSFB interns a few weeks back at a bar!

My turn to quiz Andre now :-)
At the moment, my aim is to do the whole PhD then quant thing, but I was wondering about work experience during the summers of each year. Is it usual that people with such aims just re-do internships every summer? It seems a little redundant to me as it's unlikely that a bank will let you come back for a 2nd internship if they know you're not going to be available for recruiment until your PhD is done; and hence, you'd have to do internships at different Banks; and hence you'd be introduced to the business in the same "beginners" way that you were in your first internship (phew that was a long sentence). So you're not really doing anything useful apart from making your CV look a little nicer.

Are there any chances for people to do internships/summer-placements with a quant desk? I've been reading "Mathematics of Financial Derivatives - by P.Wilmott" and also bits of the Hull book.

It would seem to me that there is no need for such opportunities to exist because the summer internships are generally regarded solely for recruitment, and there is no advantage for a bank to train you up in such things.

I'm just confused about what I could do over the next few years to boost my chances of recruiment, my knowledge, and also to help with money.

Many thanks if you can help :-)
Andre Rzym
Veteran poster

Post Number: 917
Posted on Wednesday, 01 September, 2004 - 03:42 pm:

Julian,


That's a very good question. So good that rather than hazard a guess, I asked the global head of derivatives research for JPM (Did you ask this question at Lehman?)

I asked him the following question

quote:

< ...> I have a friend completing his maths degree at Cambridge. He has done a summer internship at Lehman on their trading desk. His wish is to do a PhD then look for a DR role:

(1) Do you know whether the bulge bracket banks offer summer internships within derivatives research groups? I can imagine that there may be an intellectual property issue, however there must also be a benefit for the bank in getting to know the individuals.

(2) If the answer to (1) is 'no', is there any point in him doing a second summer 'trading desk' role, or would an interviewer see no benefit having been gained? < ...>




and got the following reply


quote:

< ...> To answer your question, yes, most investment banks offer summer internships. It is both an opportunity for the banks to work on long-term projects, things we never have time to do, and to gauge candidates on the job for future hiring. To give you an idea we took 7 interns this summer, 3 of them in London and would be very happy to consider your friend next year. < ...>




I asked someone more junior elsewhere who was not aware of DR interns but made the comment (which I agree with) "... I think he will still interview better if he has had the (second trading desk) placement, but it is really the interview that matters ...". Obviously (for the avoidance of doubt) getting a DR internship is preferable!

As far as reading is concerned, you might also like to browse Baxter & Rennie ("Financial Calculus").

Andre
Julian Pulman
Prolific poster

Post Number: 247
Posted on Wednesday, 01 September, 2004 - 05:13 pm:

Andre, that's an awesome response, thank you very, very much!
I had asked a few low down people here, but most didn't seem to know - and I thought it a little inappropriate to ask people really high up! I guess the worst which could happen is I get no response, I'll email right away.

Regarding the reading, I'll take a look at that book! I'm only a third through Wilmott's book and I've been a little troubled by the lack of proof of the statement:

Given dS/S = s dX+m dt with S being the asset price and dX being a Wiener process.
With probability 1, dX2 --> dt as dt--> 0.

Apart from that, it's all fascinating - I can't believe I almost wrote off a financial career two years ago!

Thanks, once again!
Andre Rzym
Veteran poster

Post Number: 919
Posted on Wednesday, 01 September, 2004 - 08:21 pm:

For a finite time interval Δt, the mean of ΔX is zero and variance is Δt. Now think of (ΔX )2 as the variable. What is its mean and variance? The mean is (Δt). Now, as t0, you will see that the variance goes to zero proportional to (Δt )2 .

If you have come across the contingent claims equation (and then derived Black Scholes) here are a couple of things to think about:

(1) Can you rederive and solve the PDE when the riskless rate is not a constant, but rather a known function of time? Can you do the same for volatility?

(2) You could 'derive' the Black Scholes formula by simply taking the expectation of the payout using a probability distribution which has the appropriate volatility and a mean implied by the riskless rate; then multiplied by the discount factor. But this is not a proof - the asset could be growing at other than the riskless rate. Can you prove that the CCE will always give the same answer as the naive approach? Hint in white:
Compute the Greens function for the CCE.

Andre
Julian Pulman
Prolific poster

Post Number: 248
Posted on Thursday, 02 September, 2004 - 11:16 am:

I don't know the contingent claims equation by name, but I may have come across it unwittingly.. (?) I've searched google to no avail.

The way I know how to derive Black Scholes is to consider with a portfolio Π=V- VS S,

and so dΠ=( Vt + 1 2 σ2 S2 VSS )dt. And then dΠ=rΠdt by the growth rate of the portfolio (and no arbitrage).

If I understand you properly in your 2nd question, we want to find a Wiener process (call it W this time) under a measure such that dS/S=rdt+σdW.

Then, applying Ito, we get

dV=( Vt + 1 2 σ2 S2 VSS + rSVS )dt+σ SVS dW

I took expectations under the new measure so that

E(dV)=( Vt + 1 2 σ2 S2 VSS + rSVS )dt

But obviously, this is equal to rVdt since all assets grow at the average rate r in the risk-adjusted measure. Rearranging a little, I got Black-Scholes.

That leaves the beginning bit, I guess something simple like dS/S=rdt+σ(dX+(μ-r)dt/σ) should work.

Very interesting...
If you remind me what you mean by the contingent claims equation, I can get cracking on the rest :-)

Andre Rzym
Veteran poster

Post Number: 920
Posted on Friday, 03 September, 2004 - 01:42 pm:

The contingent claim equation is just the PDE that the value of a claim follows, in other words:

1 2 σ2 S2 VSS + rsVS + Vt -rV=0

What I was trying to get at in my post above was this: You can solve the above equation for a payout of (say) a call to get the B-S formula. But the PDE above has the riskless rate, r, a constant. What if it was not a constant, but rather a non-stochastic function r=r(t)? Then the PDE becomes

1 2 σ2 S2 VSS +r(t) SVS + Vt -r(t)V=0

What does the formula look like for a call option now? The above equation can be solved to give the usual formula, but with every occurrence of e-rt replaced by e- t r(t)dt . It's not a pretty manipulation, but is perhaps worth doing once.

You could pretty much just write this down if you are familiar with changes of measure - my problem is that I find this unintuitive.

Andre

Andre Rzym
Veteran poster

Post Number: 928
Posted on Wednesday, 08 September, 2004 - 09:00 pm:

Anthony & Julian,

I recently came across the this paper .

Personally, I found it a great read. The mathematics is not entirely straightforward (equation (8) requires a bit of thought - skip it if necessary) but it is an interesting, self-contained problem which captures neatly the strategy a trader would naturally adopt. It is also something of a break from the usual investment bank problems which usually involve pricing using arbitrage constraints.

Happy to discuss it if anyone is interested (although I have not looked at the Appendix yet)

Andre
Julian Pulman
Prolific poster

Post Number: 251
Posted on Thursday, 09 September, 2004 - 06:39 pm:

So isn't the contingent claims equation just the black-scholes equation?! I'll have a go at that manipulation for non-constant rates when I get time!

Thanks for the paper, also. I've got a 4 hour train journey tomorrow, so this is a perfect opportunity to read into it!

Also, in case you're interested: I spoke to the head of quant research at Lehman about internships. He seemed to think that although there would be work for someone in my position to do, Lehman's normal internship programme relies on the fact that there is a possibility of direct recruitment after the internship ends - and that they wouldn't want a situation arising where they train me up and invest resources in me, but then I go work for Merill or Goldmans, etc.. Anyway, he said he'd think about the possibilities and contact me in a few weeks!

Thanks, for all of your help Andre! :-)