Paul Smith
Posted on Wednesday, 12 March, 2003 - 10:41 am:

Could someone explain how some of the properties and phenomena concerning Schwarzschild black holes are derived from the Schwarzschild metric, viz.

LaTeX Image

(I only know a very limited amount of special and general relativity!)

Thanks

Paul
Julian Pulman
Posted on Wednesday, 12 March, 2003 - 12:24 pm:


One of the strange properties of the Schwarzschild Metric is that once passing the Event Horizon, the signs reverse on time and radial infinitesimals. One interpretation of this is that beyond the Schwarzschild radius, spatial seperation becomes instead a function of time - and time instead of distance to the singularity. This seems kind of intuitive, because our general concensus on time is that it's always ticking away, and can never be stopped. That same strange ticking is now pushing you deeper and deeper into the black hole, and you cannot stop by definition of your location. Similarly, we agree that when our spatial distance from the singularity hits zero, time ends.
Is this time-space switch a correct interpretation?
Well, it may just be an artifact of the Schwarzschild Metric, because if you map the situation using Kruskal-Szekeres coordinates, the metric you get is:

LaTeX Image

And no such reversement ensues. Regarding thorough analysis though, this is way beyond my expertise.

Julian
William Hall
Posted on Wednesday, 12 March, 2003 - 06:31 pm:

Hi Paul,

A full exposition of this really could take some time - how much GR do you know? In particular, it would be great if you know about geodesics, and a little about curvature too.

Let me elaborate on the general plan though. The metric above clearly gives us a problem when r=rs , the Schwarzchild radius = 2GM/c2 . The first thing we show is that is the result of our choice of co-ordinates, and that we can choose co-ordinates that get rid of this singularity.

We then consider the relationship between these sets of co-ordinates, or, in other words, how a person 'far away' from our object observes another object falling towards the object. Indeed what we will observe is that an external observer will never see an object cross the 'event horizon' of the object, or equivalently its Schwarzchild radius.

This is quite involved stuff - this is taught in the final year of the Cambridge undergraduate tripos, so is pretty heavy going!

Hope that helps - let me know how you feel about this!

Bill
Paul Smith
Posted on Wednesday, 12 March, 2003 - 08:51 pm:

Hi Bill,

To be honest, most of what I know about relativity is confined to special relativity. I don't really know very much about metrics (my physics teacher quietly sidestepped this), but I do know a little bit about curvature and geodesics, though.

Paul
William Hall
Posted on Thursday, 13 March, 2003 - 09:40 pm:

OK, lets start with some stuff on metrics first. The metric tells us the distance between two points within space time. A simple example is the Minkowski space time metric

ds2 = dx2 + dy2 + dz2 - dt2

the metric for flat space (no gravity). This gives us a nice simple expression for the distance between points in Minkowski space i.e.

Δ s2 =( x1 - x2 )2 +( y1 - y2 )2 +( z1 - z2 )2 -( t1 - t2 )2

(We use this metric in flat space because light cone (e.g. x=ct) are invariant under Lorentz transformations, the transformtions between inertial frames of reference that leave the speed of light invariant; and ds2 =0 along light cones is hence invariant.)

Other metrics are more complicated, they may depend on position and hence we have to integrate along a path to determine its length.

The geodesic postulate states that the path followed by particles within a metric will minimise the length of the path i.e. A B ds. To actually calculate the geodesic equations that determine these paths requires something called calculus of variations, but we don't need to actually calculate them at the moment.

We do need one more fact though. We know that a postulate of relativity is that no particles can travel faster than the speed of light; we also know that the only ones that do travel at the speed of light are massless e.g. photons. With this in mind, we can define the separation between two events in space time (i.e. two 4D co-ordinates as above) in three ways using ds2 :

a) The two events are timelike separated if ds2 <0;

b) The two events are spacelike separated if ds2 >0;

c) The two events are lightlike separated if ds2 =0.

If two events are timelike separated in flat space, then this basically means that there exists a frame of reference in which they occur at the same point in space but at different times (don't worry about why this is for now; if you don't like this then we can prove it but we have to do into algebraic detail which I think isn't useful at the moment.) Indeed, this time separation is the least time separation between the two events in any frame (to show this, think about the invariance of the interval Δ s2 .) We call this separation the proper time (you probably know this as the time measured in the frame in which an event occurs; this is just the same thing.)

We have a second postulate, the clock postulate, which says that any clock following a path through space time (called a world line) measures the proper time for that path. We have that

τ= A B dt

where dτ=ds when ds2 is positive (i.e. when two close by points are timelike separated, dsgives the infinitessimal increment in proper time, dτ.

One final word of warning - you may notice some books which have ds2 having the opposite sign. This is just a different convention; you have to just invert the definitions of timelike and spacelike.

I realise may be very hard to understand as i've skimmed over some issues, let me know how you get on with it. We'll need the idea of proper time for the next bit.

Bill

Paul Smith
Posted on Thursday, 13 March, 2003 - 10:08 pm:

Thanks Bill, I think I've just about got all of that.
Colin Prue
Posted on Saturday, 15 March, 2003 - 12:55 am:

sorry if i'm misunderstanding your meaning, but from your definitions of a,b, and c above, why can i not have timelike separated events that are not at the same point in space. I don't really want (i will get lost in) the algebraic detail you spoke of, but i do not understand how there can exist a frame of reference such that the two events can be made to be at the same point in space. how is this physically interpreted?

(sorry if i'm raining on your barbeque paul, but this is interesting stuff), ignore me if you want!
William Hall
Posted on Saturday, 15 March, 2003 - 03:38 pm:

OK, sorry for the belated response. To quickly respond to Colin's question, you can have two timelike separated events that are not at the same point in space; what I am saying that for timelike separated events there exists some frame of reference in which the two events are at the same point in space; just separated in time; but not vice versa.

In a bit more detail, Lorentz transformations preserve the Minkowski distance above i.e. Δ s2 ; and hence this preserves the e.g. timelike nature of the two events. So it definitely possible for e.g. two timelike events to be separated only be space, as this changes the sign of δ s2 . However it is non-trivial to show that a frame of reference exists such that two events are at the same point in space, and this is where the algebra comes in.

OK, will post the next bit of the explanation in a bit...

Bill

William Hall
Posted on Saturday, 15 March, 2003 - 04:12 pm:

OK, here we go with the next bit of the explanation. First we need to consider exactly what the Schwarzchild metric is. The idea of GR is to incorporate the effects of a gravitational field on particles by considering particles to live within a curved space, and particles move along geodesics within that space. The metric characterises how the space time behaves at all points in space.

The link between these curved spaces and gravity is provided by the Einstein field equations. The Schwarzchild metric is the (unique) solution to the Einstein equations that is spherically symmetric (that is, the behaviour of the metric only essentially varies with respoect to the radial distance r) and satisfies the 'vacuum' Einstein equations for r>0.

We find that the above definition eventually gives us

ds2 =-(1- rs /r) dt2 + dr2 /(1- rs /r)+ r2 (d θ2 +sin θ2 d φ2 )

(the calculation of this is a) very long and b) involves tensors, which I definitely do not want to introduce here!)

It appears that we have a singularity in our metric at r= rs . However we can show that this singularity is simply a co-ordinate singularly, one that has manifested itself due to a 'bad choice of co-ordinates'. Indeed, we find the curvature tensor is perpendicular to r-6 , so the singularity is not very singular. (Sorry I'm not elaborating on this but it would be very lengthy indeed to fully introduce tensors!)

What this tells us is that essentially that the Schwarzchild radius is not special, and that in some sense it is no different from any other radial distance.

OK, think it's probably best to let you read this before carrying on. The next bit will unfortunately have to make more assumptions that I can't really prove quickly, relating to the dynamics of falling objects in this metric. From this we can get a first glimpse of this property of objects never seeming to fall into black holes.

BTW, please feel free to ask questions - you are right Colin, this is very interesting, and questions are more than welcome.

Bill

Paul Smith
Posted on Saturday, 15 March, 2003 - 08:06 pm:

Following so far ... (I agree, it's probably best not to go into tensors!)
Paul Smith
Posted on Sunday, 16 March, 2003 - 07:01 pm:

As well as the time dilation, could you also explain a little about the blue/red shifts and the tidal forces, Bill. Thanks.

Paul
William Hall
Posted on Tuesday, 18 March, 2003 - 08:02 pm:

OK, this time I'm going to give a brief exposition of how a particle approaching the Schwarzchild radius of a mass does so in finite proper time, but appears to take infinitely long due to a far away observer.

We assume that our object is on a radial path i.e. dτ=dφ=0. We suppose τ is the proper time of the particle and t the time measured by an observer at infinity.

It is possible to deduce that
(dr/dτ)2 = E2 -(1- rs r )

where E is the energy constant, and also that
dt dτ (1- rs r )=E

(These equations are essentially a form of the geodesic equations. They are derived from looking at the Lagrangian of the system and looking for constants of the motion. If this means nothing to you then don't worry, if it does I could explain how to get the above equations).

We obtain from the first equation that
-dτ=dr/ E2 -(1- rs r )

If E is alrge enough (andsince this corresponds to energy, we just let our particle have enough energy as we like) then we can integrate the above to show that τ is finite at r= rs (I think you need a sinh squared substitution to show this.)

However,
dt= E 1- rs r dr E2 -(1- rs r


dt -dr rs r- rs to first  order


t~- rs log r- rs rs

i.e. t is infinite at r tends to the Schwarzchild radius.

I'll post some more when I get time- sorry about the long delay between posts! If you want to read a book on this stuff, I can recommend two texts:

Introducing Einstein's Relativity by Ray D'Inverno;

Relativity: Special, General and Cosmological by Wolfgang Rindler.

Bill

Paul Smith
Posted on Wednesday, 19 March, 2003 - 07:11 pm:

Thanks, Bill. Just one question: what's the significance of LaTeX Image within the Schwarzschild radius?

Paul
William Hall
Posted on Thursday, 20 March, 2003 - 12:57 pm:

The significance of ds2 < 0 is related to the question asked above - here we are looking only at physical orbits, or in other words timelike orbits (lightlike orbits can only be achieved a t the speed of light, while spacelike orbits are not physically realisable). To see this you just need to look at the definitions of lightlike etc. and convince yourself that this is correct.
Paul Smith
Posted on Thursday, 20 March, 2003 - 05:38 pm:

Sorry, Bill, I'm not sure I follow. What I was saying is if an object satisfies rSch > r (i.e. it is within the Schwarzschild radius), what can we say about the object using the Schwarzschild metric? Are you suggesting that it's not physically possible for the object to cross the event horizon?

Paul
William Hall
Posted on Tuesday, 25 March, 2003 - 10:10 pm:

OK, in reponse to your second question, what I'm saying is that an observer at infinity will not observe an object to cross the horizon. The above states it reaches the horizon in a finite proper time, so physically an object can reach the event horizon, but an observer at infinity will never see it actually get there.

Actually, you could argue that this a slightly perverse way of looking at this, in that an object essentially within the Schwarzchild radius (and has maybe reached the singularity at the centre if it is a black hole) continues to radiate an infinite amount of energy; a more sound way to look at this would be to consider a pulsing emitting source, and (it can be) show(n) that the frequency decreases exponentially as it approaches the event horizon (as seen by an observer at infinity).

This is a side point however. We have shown that if our object has a radius below its Schwarzchld radius than external viewers never see it cross the horizon. However I don't think we can infer it will actually become a 'black hole' i.e. will have a singularity at the origin, or something like that - the physics of the contraction (e.g. overpowering of neutron degeneracy etc.) is (at least to be knowledge) inferred from this.

What we can say that if we consider a point object under the Schwarzchild metric, then under the Schwarzchild metric and the proper time associated with it, the Schwarzchild radius is nothing special (this is mentioned in my third post). However using the time of an external observer (i.e. at infinity, as we will always be with respect to a black hole on earth) the Schwarzchild radius does indeed look special, hence the apparent observeration that the object doesn't cross the event horizon.

I believe that siginificance of ds2 < 0 (which is ds2 > 0 with my sign convention) however does not pertain to whether we are inside or outside the Schwarzchild radius, but simply timelike/spacelike seperation as mentioned before.