Ryan Dyck
Posted on Friday, 03 October, 2003 - 11:00 pm:

Hi, I was wondering if you would be able to help me out with a tricky irrational I'm working on. I'm trying to prove that e+Ö2 is irrational. I know that e=1+1/1!+1/2!... and is irrational by a lengthy proof, and I know that Ö2 is irrational by a proof that I hope I won't have to reproduce here. Anyway, so in an attempt to prove that e+Ö2 is irrational I began by trying to show that if you add Ö2, which we know is irrational, to a simplified version of e that I got in my proof, that the result would be irrational, but it didn't really work out. Any thoughts? It'd be greatly appreciated.

Ryan
Saul Foresta
Posted on Saturday, 04 October, 2003 - 12:44 am:

rational + rational can't be irrational
Saul Foresta
Posted on Saturday, 04 October, 2003 - 12:48 am:

hmm, didn't mean to post that, sorry i meant consider e+21/2 and e-21/2 .
Saul Foresta
Posted on Saturday, 04 October, 2003 - 01:23 am:

or actually, you can do it by contradiction, assume e+21/2 is rational, then e is the sum of two algebraic numbers, which you can show is always algebraic, hence contradiction.
Angelina Lai
Posted on Saturday, 04 October, 2003 - 02:04 pm:

can you expand saul?

just as an extention to that q, would the sum of 2 irrational numbers always be irrational?
Chris
Posted on Saturday, 04 October, 2003 - 02:08 pm:

I think what Saul is implying is that if e+21/2 is rational, it must be algebraic, therfore e must be the difference of two algebraic numbers (since 21/2 is algebraic) which is also algebraic, so e is algebraic, which is a contradiction, since e is transcendental.
Angelina Lai
Posted on Saturday, 04 October, 2003 - 02:10 pm:

ok thanks chris, that's better.
Sarah Sarah
Posted on Saturday, 04 October, 2003 - 03:28 pm:

Angelina, the sum and/or product of two irrationals is not always irrational

e.g. 2-Ö2 and 2+Ö2

Proof that e's irrational isn't that horrible, is it? I remember it being on an old STEP..

Sarah

Ryan Dyck
Posted on Saturday, 04 October, 2003 - 04:04 pm:

Ok, great, thanks a lot for your help. I'll see if I can get anywhere with this, but I may have to post if I get stuck again.

Thanks again,

Ryan Dyck
Saul Foresta
Posted on Saturday, 04 October, 2003 - 05:31 pm:

here's one proof that e is irrational, i know nobody specifically asked for this but whatever.

e=1+1/1!+1/2!+....

Anticipating a contradiction assume e=p/q where p,q are integers greater than 0, and (p,q)=1.
Then,

p/q=e=1+1/1!+1/2!+...., now multiply on both sides by q! to get,

p(q-1)!=q!(1+1/1!+...+1/q!)+q!(1/(q+1)!+...) Now the LHS is an integer, and so is the first term on the RHS, so we are done if we can show that the second term on the RHS is between zero and one. Clearly it must be greater than zero, but note,

(1/(q+1)+q!/(q+2)!+....)< (1/(q+1)+1/(q+1)2 +...+1/(q+1)k +...)=1/q, and hence we have our contradiction, so e must be irrational.
Olof Sisask
Posted on Friday, 10 October, 2003 - 11:55 pm:

On this topic, who knows how to show that the sum of two algebraic numbers is again an algebraic number? What about the product? Inverses? Some of these things are easier to show than others.
Indeed, LaTeX Image, the set of algebraic numbers, is a field.

Just some things to think about.

Regards,
Olof
Michael Doré
Posted on Saturday, 11 October, 2003 - 11:38 am:

Hint: note that x is algebraic iff span< 1,x,x2 ,...> has finite dimension (as a subspace of the vector space R over the rationals Q).
Olof Sisask
Posted on Saturday, 11 October, 2003 - 12:52 pm:

If you've met field extensions, it turns out to be ludicrously easy to do all of these in one go.

Michael - have you ever come across a way of constructing the minimum polynomial of LaTeX Image, given the minimum polynomial of LaTeX Image and of LaTeX Image? I wonder if this is even theoretically possible.
David Loeffler
Posted on Saturday, 11 October, 2003 - 01:42 pm:

Not unless you know more about a and b than just their minimal polynomials: consider a = Ö2 and b first Ö2 then -Ö2.
Michael Doré
Posted on Saturday, 11 October, 2003 - 02:02 pm:

There are however easy ways of deriving _some_ polynomial P (not necessarily the minimal one) which kills a+b if you know about tensors and stuff. FIrst find matrices A, B with integer entries which have a, b (respectively) as eigenvalues. (Hint for doing this: let A, B have entries 1 just above the diagonal, and all the rest of the entries zero except those on the bottom row.)

Now consider the tensor A×I + I×B where × here denotes the tensor product. This has an eigenvalue a+b with some eigenvector u×v (where u, v are column vectors). So a+b must be a solution to the equation:

det((A×I + I×B) - l(I×I))=0

and it's easy to check the left hand side is a polynomial with integer coefficients.

Olof Sisask
Posted on Saturday, 11 October, 2003 - 06:07 pm:

Ah yes, of course, David. Well put.

Michael - can't say I've done tensors yet, but the idea is clear enough. Easy when you know how!

- Olof
Anand Deopurkar
Posted on Wednesday, 19 November, 2003 - 01:38 pm:

Does anyone know the proof that e is transcendental ?
Emma McCaughan
Posted on Wednesday, 19 November, 2003 - 08:25 pm:

This is one that's in our archive: here !
Feel free to ask more questions here if you need help understanding what's there.
James
Posted on Wednesday, 19 November, 2003 - 08:28 pm:

Umm, can someone explain what an algebraic number is please. I know that any rational number can be written p/q where p and q are integers, is this what you mean?
James
Posted on Wednesday, 19 November, 2003 - 08:36 pm:

It seems that my question has been answered by the link in Emma's message.
Chris
Posted on Wednesday, 19 November, 2003 - 09:15 pm:

Algebraic means that it can be written as the solution to a polynomial a0 xn + a1 xn-1 + ... + an=0, with ai being integers.

Thus it follows that numbers such as Ö2 and

Ö
 

2+Ö2
 

are algebraic.

Chris
Posted on Wednesday, 19 November, 2003 - 09:16 pm:

Ooops, didn't see your second post, never mind
James
Posted on Wednesday, 19 November, 2003 - 09:57 pm:

Thanks Chris, thats actually made it much clearer to me now.
Demetres Christofides
Posted on Thursday, 20 November, 2003 - 09:27 am:

This is really tough. Suppose e is algebraic, say

LaTeX Image

Let LaTeX Image

where p is a 'large prime'

Define

LaTeX Image

Define

LaTeX Image

1. Integrate by parts n times to show that

LaTeX Image

2. Using the above expression for J, show that if you choose p large enough, then LaTeX Image but LaTeX Image

3. Go back to the expression of I as an integral and find an upper bound for I in terms of t,n and p. Use this together with the definition of J to find an upper bound for J depending on the ai 's,n and p. But ai 's and n are fixed while you can take p as large as you want. Show that LaTeX Image for some constant C independent of p.

4. Show that you result in 3 contradicts 2


Demetres

Michael Doré
Posted on Thursday, 20 November, 2003 - 01:20 pm:

Hmmm, did I really post that thing which is now in the archive? Either I forgot to give the proofs of Liouville and Lindemann (the former is easy, the latter is essentially an extension of the proof Demetres has given that e is transcendental) or they got deleted somehow. Also I misstated Liouville's theorem - you need to add the condition that x is irrational.
Olof Sisask
Posted on Thursday, 20 November, 2003 - 06:04 pm:

Michael - I remember eagerly awaiting the proofs.

I seem to remember that there was a problem with one of the trig statements as well - it allowed you to deduce that pi + e was either transcendental or algebraic, but I think that's been corrected. I think there was probably an iff somewhere.

I've always wondered if there isn't a simpler proof of Lindemann's theorem (simpler than the standard one, that is). Anyone know of alternative proofs?
Michael Doré
Posted on Thursday, 20 November, 2003 - 06:49 pm:

Sorry about that. I think I must have been _totally_ out of it when I wrote that message...
Brad Rodgers
Posted on Thursday, 20 November, 2003 - 08:23 pm:

The only proof I know of Lindemann is the one given in Hardy and Wright, which is presumably the standard one.

There is however another proof of e's transcendence, one which in my opinion is a good deal simpler. It's due to Hilbert.

Recall that for an integer k,

ò0¥ xk e-x dx=k!,

and thus for an integral polynomial p (with integer coefficients, that is)

ò0¥ xk p(x) e-x dx º k! p(0) (mod (k+1)!)

Suppose then that e is algebraic. There exist integers ai such that

a0+a1 e+a2 e2 + ... + an en=0,

and, without loss of generality, a0 ¹ 0.

Let (for n as above)

I(b, a)=òabxm[(x-1)...(x-n)] m+1 e-x dx

and define

S=a0 I(¥, 0)+ a1 e I(¥, 1)+...+an en I( ¥, n)

and

T=a1 e I(1,0)+...+an en I(n,0).

Note that S+T=0.

Now, we require two lemmas:

Lemma 1: For infinitely many m, S/m! is a nonzero integer.

Proof: Substituting y=x-k into the integral for I,

ak ek I(¥, k)=akò0¥ yq pk(y) e-y dy

where q=m or m+1 as k=0 or not, and the pk are polynomials with integer coefficients. Using (1), we have that the first term of S is divisible by m!, and that the rest are divisible by (m+1)!. But p0(0) = (-1)n(m+1)n!m+1, which, by Fermat's theorem, is congruent to (-1)n(m+1)n! (mod (m+1)) when m+1 is prime, and since n! isn't divisible by an infinitude of primes, there are an infinitude of m for which m! p0(0) isn't divisible by (m+1)!, and thus an infinitude of m for which S/m! is a nonzero integer.

Lemma 2:

lim
m®¥ 
T/m!=0

.

Proof: Let


M=
max
0 £ x £ n 
|(x-1)(x-2)...(x-n)|(x+1).

It is relatively easy to show that

|akI(k,0)| £ k|ak| Mm+1,

from which it follows

|T|/m!=O(Mm+1/m!)® 0.

But, since S+T=0, Lemma 1 and Lemma 2 contradict each other, and thus e cannot be algebraic.

Brad

Olof Sisask
Posted on Thursday, 20 November, 2003 - 10:10 pm:

That's a great proof Brad. Really nice. Very well explained as well - nice one.

Michael - it was still good getting all those transcendentality results gathered in one place. Besides, an unproven statement usually inspires mathematicians to go and find out themselves. At least I know I did!

Olof
Bugz Podder
Posted on Friday, 21 November, 2003 - 12:01 am:

this stuff looks scary... when is it taught? second or third year university?
Olof Sisask
Posted on Friday, 21 November, 2003 - 07:55 am:

I'm not sure about other universities, but I don't think the transcendence of e (or any other number for that matter) is usually taught out. At least it wasn't in the Number Theory module here at Warwick, and the only other possibility I can see for it is if it's in a fourth year reading module called Algebraic Number Theory. Which, come to think of it, it might just be.

Anyway, if you're interested in number theory, I wouldn't wait till university to check out all the results - you can cover them much more quickly yourself with a copy of Hardy and Wright!

Olof
Demetres Christofides
Posted on Saturday, 22 November, 2003 - 09:53 am:

Prof. Baker sometimes gave a course called 'Transendental number Theory' in the 4th year at Cambridge. He's got a book under the same title published by CUP. It is quite a hard reading.

Demetres