Binomial and Bernoulli random
variables
By Edwin Koh on Thursday, November 07,
2002 - 06:41 am:
Is a binomial random variable with parameters n and p
necessarily a sum of n independent Bernoulli random variables? If
so, how is this proven? More concretely, how are the Bernoulli
random variables constructed from the given binomial random
variable?
By Dan Goodman on Thursday, November 07,
2002 - 02:50 pm:
Edwin, are you asking the question from
a measure theory point of view? Why do you want to know if there
are Bernoulli random variables whose sum is actually the same as
a given binomial, rather than just knowing that their
distribution is the same? Surely anything useful (i.e. that
doesn't depend on the actual sample space as a set) that can be
proved if they are actually the same can be proved if they only
have the same distribution?
If you're worried about being able to have all of the random
variables sharing the same sample space, then if I remember
correctly there's a theorem (whose name I can't remember, but
which I think is not too difficult to prove) which says that
given a countable number of random variables defined on differing
sample spaces you can construct a sample space, a measure on the
sample space, and a countable set of independent random variables
defined on it with the same distributions as the ones you started
with.
By Edwin Koh on Thursday, November 07,
2002 - 11:08 pm:
Thanks for answering my question. Yes, I was considering the
question from a measure-theoretic point of view - but I don't see
the difference from any other point of view because the sum
wouldn't be defined if there wasn't a common sample space.
I've a further question: Is it possible for the Bernoulli
variables to be defined on the same sample space as the given
binomial? This was what I was originally considering but I guess
I didn't phrase it properly.
By Dan Goodman on Friday, November 08,
2002 - 02:23 am:
Unless you're doing measure theory you probably don't worry
about things like the sample space and the definition of random variables as
functions from a sample space to
. If you are doing measure theory,
you prove the theorem I mentioned above and then forget about the sample space.
However, your question does make sense although I don't think it has any use
in probability theory. I don't think that you can do it in general, although
I haven't proved it. Here's how I think that you should start:
Define
and
by
.
Define a probability measure
on
by
.
Now
. Suppose we had independent random variables
with
and
for
, 1 so
that
. Let
so
. We need that
,
(
) and so on for the
random variables
to be independent. I suspect you can construct a
combinatorial or algebraic argument for a particular choice of
and
to
prove that this isn't possible. I think taking
is probably enough, and
a judicious choice of
is probably a good idea (try
). Let
us know how you get on.
By Dan Goodman on Friday, November 08,
2002 - 02:37 am:
Yes, that would do it. Consider
A1 is a subset of {0,1,2} and P(A1 )=p. But
P(A1 ) is a sum of one or two of (1-p)2 ,
2p(1-p), p2 . This would give a sum of quadratics in p
giving a linear equation in p, but we know that p involves a cube
root so none of these equations can hold.
By Edwin Koh on Saturday, November 09,
2002 - 07:23 am:
Thanks for the brilliant counterexample! But I'm sorry I've to
bother you again. Is there a counterexample in the case where the
sample space is countably infinite?
(Here's why such questions aren't entirely useless in probability theory:
Suppose we've a sequence of binomial random variables
defined
on a sample space
. Note that
has to be at least countably
infinite so that the
s are all measurable. Can each
be expressed
as a sum
where
, ...,
are
independent Bernoulli random variables?)
By Edwin Koh on Saturday, November 09,
2002 - 07:38 am:
Maybe I should add this to the justification (that the
question isn't pointless): Once we know Xn can be
expressed as such a sum, only then can we apply the Central Limit
Theorem (for double arrays) to make some useful conclusions. Hope
that's reason enough.
By Dan Goodman on Saturday, November 09,
2002 - 03:52 pm:
The counterexample is the same, just extend my
above to
and set
for
not 0, 1 or 2. This is a bit
of a cheat, but it does work.
In your second case, where you have an infinite sequence of binomial r.v.s
defined on the same sample space, you might conceivably be able to get it to
work. My argument above doesn't provide a counterexample, but I still think
it won't be true.
You don't need to do it though if you are interested in probability theory,
because you can use the theorem described earlier to create a new sample space
on which they are all defined. Any conclusions about the distributions of the
and
will still hold