Recursive Sums
By Adam Ring on Wednesday, September 26,
2001 - 05:34 pm:
I seem to have found a problem that is similar to
where
is an arbitrary value. I have found the very helpful threads about this topic
along with the discussion that one can find the coefficients using Bernoulli
numbers. My problem, however, involves an arbitrary number of recursions.
For example, if we start with
we find that the solution is
equal to
. We can then do a recursive sum,
.
This will then reduce to
which then reduces to
.
Adding a third sum will amount to
The equation can be specified as
where
is an arbitrary number of summations with the first being
. As
it turns out,
is also the order of the algebraic answer as well.
Right now I know two ways that this can be solved with a given
r. The first is to build up the equations like I showed above for
the case r=3.
The second way would seem to involve plugging r into the equation
above and use whatever method one could use to find a formula for
a sum. Depending on r, this seems the more difficult of the
two.
Anyway, is there a method for solving this problem that is
similar (or dissimilar) to the arbitrary power of sums problem
that has already been discussed? I'm assuming that the solution
would have a similar form with the coefficients being determined
by a sequence similar to the Bernoulli sequence. Thanks for the
help.
By David Loeffler on Thursday, September
27, 2001 - 10:33 pm:
Have you tried writing out Pascal's triangle? You may find it
illuminating. I'll not give you any clearer hints yet - see what
you find. If you get stuck write back.
David
By Michael Doré on Friday, September 28, 2001 - 05:49 pm:
Alternatively, you can write:
as
where
is the indicator function. (In other words
if
is true
and
if
is false.)
Therefore the
-fold sum is equal to the number of ordered
-tuples
where each
is an integer in
, and
.
Letting
it is clear that the answer is the number of ordered
-tuples of integers
such that
is in
and
. A bit of thought shows this is the number of
unordered
-tuples of distinct integers in
(can you see a bijection
between the two sets?) This of course is equal to the binomial coefficient
. Therefore:
Alternatively you can get this answer in one line by induction on
.
By Adam Ring on Friday, September 28, 2001
- 11:39 pm:
I must apologize for being obtuse, but I didn't understand
that proof at all. I did try to use:
where
is the binomial coefficient and
. From
there, I was able to iterate through the various recursive sums with
equal to
, which could be written in terms
of the various
sums. (Clarification,
is the sum of
while
is the recursive sum carried out
times of 1). This obviously got
me nowhere since I had to keep track of both the
sums and the recursive
sums. I believe this method could be described as an exercise in futility.
The basic thing is that I don't understand how to start the
proof. I didn't understand what Michael was saying about the
indicator function. My mind immediately jumped to boolean logic
with the zeros and ones, and from there it wouldn't let go.
Thanks for the help.
By Michael Doré on Saturday, September 29, 2001 - 02:15 pm:
Yes, it was a bit rushed. Here is another way of
writing out the proof. We want to evaluate:
where
,
are fixed natural numbers.
We can write this as:
where
Let
be the set of all ordered
-tuples
of integers
such that
is in
,
is in
,
is in
, ...,
is in
. In other words
is
in
if
.
Let
be the set of all subsets
of
such that
.
For instance one element of
would be
. Note that
this is not different from
- they are the same subset.
We claim that
. (
means the number of elements in
.) It is
easy to see why this is true. The
-iterated sum
counts ''one'' for
every
such that
,
,
...,
and
. So
counts
one for every element of
, in other words
.
We now claim that
. We do this by giving a bijection from
to
.
The bijection is a very simple one: we take an ordered
-tuple
in
and map it to the subset
. Note that this
subset is in
. It has
distinct elements (since
is strictly
increasing) and it is clear that each element is in
. To show it
is a bijection we must show it is:
(i) injective
(ii) surjective
(i) is clear. If two ordered
-tuples in
map to the sameelement of
then they must be the same
-tuple (since all
-tuples
in
have
).
(ii) We have to show that for every subset
of
of size
, we can
find an ordered
-tuple
in
such that
.
Well define
to be the smallest element of
,
to be the second
smallest element of
, ... and
to be the largest element in
.
Then since
and
are
integers so
. It is clear that
if
and it is also obvious that
. Hence
is indeed
in
and the bijection isestablished.
Therefore
. But
is the set of
-sized subsets of
so by definition of the binomial coefficient,
. So
Alternatively, you can prove the result much quicker by noting that:
Summing this from
to
gives:
So if
then:
It is now easy to iterate this, to get the answer. This is practically the
same as David's method.
As for your method I'm a bit confused about where your first equation comes
from. It is going to be hard to get the required result by expanding and
using the result for
. One interesting thingthat could
come out of your approach though might besome interesting identities
concerning theBernoulli numbers. I'll have another look later.
By Adam Ring on Monday, October 01, 2001 -
04:33 pm:
I thank you for the explination. It is now much clearer. One
of the problems that I faced was that my focus is in engineering,
not math. The proof makes sense now, but I did need some time to
wrap my brain around the problem.
The answer to where I got the first equation in my previous post was from
.
This can be expanded two ways. The first is a telescoping series
that reduces to
(n+1)r - 1 = nr + C(r,1)nr-1 +
... + C(r,r-1)n
and the second expansion is
where
, which of course means
,
,
Set the two lines equal to each other, and it should be what I
typed previously.
There may be some link between the Bernoulli numbers and the
binomial coefficients, but exactly what that is, I haven't got a
clue.
Thanks for all your help.