00


This is a merger of two threads on the same theme.
By Katharina JüRges (P2657) on Tuesday, July 4, 2000 - 03:02 pm :

What does 00 equal?
1, 0, or is this not defined?

There could be just a convention for 00 , however I don't remember it, so if anyone could help, thanks!


By Anonymous on Tuesday, July 4, 2000 - 11:45 pm :

00 is not defined (It is like asking what is 0/0 the answer could be any real number as zero times any any real numer is zero). However it can be shown that xx where x can be infinitely close to zero (but not zero) is infinitely close to 1. in Other words: lim xx when x tends to 0 is 1.


By Simon Judes (P2636) on Friday, July 7, 2000 - 01:35 am :

About 00 , note that as x goes to 0, 0x goes to 0, but x0 tends to 1. So I think that there is a convention that 00 is defined as 1 because x0 occurs frequently in power series whereas 0x isn't really a very useful function at all.


By Brad Rodgers (P1930) on Friday, July 7, 2000 - 03:30 am :

Isn't x0 defined by x being multiplied by itself 0 times and then put into an equation? I think exponents were meant to abbreviate how many times a term appears in a multiplication, so any x0 would be 1. Complex proof: y=x0 differentiates to 0, so y always equals 1 so long as the binomial theorem is correct.


By Michael Doré (P904) on Friday, July 7, 2000 - 10:37 am :

I agree with Brad here. It is far more useful to have 00 = 1 rather than 0.

The thing is that with x0 , the x actually doesn't feature at all. The whole point of the exponent being 0 is that the power is independent of x. If x = 0, then once you make it dependent on x (by setting the exponent to anything greater than 0) the power does get influenced by the 0 and so the answer is 0. On the other hand if you set it to something less than 0, it becomes unbounded.

The problem is that in this case, division is not a good way to reverse multiplication. But that doesn't mean 00 shouldn't be defined. It is defined by virtue of the fact that the zero exponent means that the zero (being raised to the power) is never multiplied in so can't affect the outcome.

Perhaps a good definition of f(x,y) = xy for real x,y would be as follows. (I've got no idea if it's done this way).

1) f(x,0) = 1
2) f(x,1) = x
3) f(x,a+b) = f(x,a)f(x,b) (a ¹ -b if x = 0)
4) f(x,ab) = f(f(x,a),b)
5) f(x,y) is continuous on y

That should do the trick I think. To extend to complex numbers you need to look at its derivative, and generalise that too.

Yours,

Michael


By Dave Sheridan (Dms22) on Friday, July 7, 2000 - 11:35 am :

The usual way to define xy is as ey ln(x) , where the exponential function is well defined by its Taylor expansion. You can easily prove from this that it has the five properties above; proving that a function exists and is unique from the above looks more difficult but probably quite easy (haven't tried).

-Dave


By Michael Doré (P904) on Friday, July 7, 2000 - 02:34 am :

Well I think you can do it as follows.

By rule 2): f(x,1) = x.

By rule 3): f(x,a) = x f(x,a-1)

So f(x,2) = x2 , f(x,3) = x3 ...

For all integral n:

f(x,n) = xn

Then by rule 4): (letting a = 1/2 and b = 2)

f(x,1/2)2 = f(x,1) = x

Similarly by letting a = 1/n and b = n:

f(x,1/n)n = x

which shows that for all unit fractions it is consistent. Then to get to all the other rationals apply rule 4) again. And then for the irrationals use rule 5) - every irrational can be given a sequence of rationals tending to the irrational limit. And the sequence of f(x,rn ) will converge uniquely because f(x,r) is continuous on the rationals. Therefore f(x,y) = xy for all real y.

Maybe rule 1) is redundant...

Michael


By Katharina JüRges (P2657) on Friday, July , 2000 - 03:47 pm :

Thank you for all your answers.

I wouldn't have thought so many answers would gather.

BRAD, could you tell me what the binomial theorem is?


By Brad Rodgers (P1930) on Friday, July 7, 2000 - 09:03 pm :

It is an infinite series used to describe (x+b)n . It's main use that I have seen is for differentiation. It provides the mathematics to show that for every y=xn , dy/dx=nxn-1 . This important as it shows that for

y=x0

dy/dx=0

And thus y always stays at 1.

Brad


By Neil Morrison (P1462) on Saturday, July 8, 2000 - 11:32 am :

The binomial theroem has many uses in all areas of maths, especially probability, and series expansions (giving approximations to series). If you go through the Special Relativity formulae you can use the binomial theroem to show that for v < < c, E~(1/2)mv2 , ie: Newton's mechanic formula.

Neil M


By Simon Judes (P2636) on Saturday, July 8, 2000 - 01:08 pm :

Brad, I'm not sure that quite works. Say y=x0 , then dy/dx=0 x x-1 =0/x, not 0. At x=0 this is indeterminate: 0/0, so y can be defined to behave however you want at x=0.


By Ian Robinson (P3243) on Wednesday, November 8, 2000 - 08:23 am :

Help,
My year 12 double extension maths son has asked me and I know that BY DEFINITION 00 = 1 , but don't know how to prove it to him.

His teachers don't know either !!

Any help will be appreciated greatly


By Barkley Bellinger (Bb246) on Wednesday, November 8, 2000 - 10:24 am :
You can define xx as ex loge (x)

Then, let x=1/n and consider limits as n

You then just need to convince yourself that

( loge (n))/n0 in this limit.


By Barkley Bellinger (Bb246) on Wednesday, November 8, 2000 - 12:19 pm :
Actually, letting x=1/( ey ) and considering limits as y is probably a better way of thinking about it, since then you need to show that

y/( ey )0

which is easy. (consider the expansion of ey )


By Kerwin Hui (Kwkh2) on Wednesday, November 8, 2000 - 01:39 pm :
00 is UNDEFINED. However, we can find a limit of the function f(x)= xx as x tends to zero from above, which involves the use of L'Hôpital's rule as outlined by Barkley. Notice that we are only computing the limit from above, since for x<0, xx can take on an infinite number of value. Also, the value of the limit is not the value of the function itself at the point x=0.

Kerwin


By James Lingard (Jchl2) on Wednesday, November 8, 2000 - 01:43 pm :

(PS. This was written before I'd read the message Kerwin has just posted...)

Actually I'd be inclined to say that you can't prove that 00 = 1, it is entirely a matter of what you define 00 to be, which is conventionally 1. You can, however, demonstrate that this is a sensible definition, because x0 = 1 for all x ¹ 0, so it makes sense for 00 = 1 as well.

Just to confuse things, there is a certain argument for saying that 00 should be 0, since 0x = 0 for all positive x, but I think that despite this it makes more sense for it to be 1.

I hope that clarifies things a little,

James.


By Susan Langley (Sml30) on Wednesday, November 8, 2000 - 01:52 pm :

Well, 00 =01 /01 =0/0 just to complicate matters..:) Though I would feel more happy about defining 0/0 to be 1 than 00


By Anonymous on Wednesday, November 8, 2000 - 02:12 pm :

Multiplication is only defined on the set of real numbers bar 0 so 0/0 is meaningless.

Since we define xy =exp(ylog(x)), log(0) is undefined as we define log(x)= 1 x 1/tdt (where the integral exists). 1 0 1/tdt is not integrable so 00 is not defined.
By Dan Goodman (Dfmg2) on Wednesday, November 8, 2000 - 03:40 pm :

Er, multiplication is perfectly well defined on the real numbers including zero, but 0 has no multiplicative inverse, so (as you say) 0/0 is meaningless, similarly xy . You can fiddle around with limits in various ways, but (if I remember) you can get pretty much anything you like this way. For instance, there was a recent thread on this board I think where someone showed 10 =-1, his argument was that (-1)2n =1, therefore 11/2n =-1, let n tend to infinity and get 10 =-1. I hope this demonstrates the futility of this sort of argument? The argument for 00 =1 is usually made on the grounds of convenience, for instance in binomial expansions, etc.


By Barkley Bellinger (Bb246) on Wednesday, November 8, 2000 - 04:16 pm :

The fact that we can call 00 either 'undefined' or let it be something sensible like 1 is, I think, analogous to the idea of Cauchy principal values. We can let the power and the number we are raising to it tend to 0 either at different rates (and from different directions) in which case our answer is not well defined, or we can let both parts tend to zero from above at the same rate, in which case we get 1.


By Michael Doré (Md285) on Thursday, November 9, 2000 - 04:35 pm :

I agree that the value 00 can't be deduced from the value of ab everywhere else, and also that the most sensible definition is 1.

Here is a demonstration of why 00 = 1 is a good idea:

By the binomial expansion:

(a + b)n = an b0 + nC1 an-1 b1 + ... + nCn a0 bn

Now set a = 1 and b = 0:

1n = 1n 00 (all but first term goes to zero).

So 00 = 1.