A theorem concerning primes
[Editor: The following is a largely
unedited discussion of a theorem proposed by Brad.]
By Brad Rodgers on Tuesday, April 23, 2002
- 01:22 am:
I think I have a proof for the following theorem, and I would
like to make sure the proof is correct, but before I do that, I'd
like to make sure that the following theorem isn't obvious in
some way I'm not missing:
There are an infinite number of integers
, that satisfy
, for all
.
To my knowledge, this theorem is original, though I'm not sure
how useful it is. My proof of it is elementary, but also somewhat
long. To that end, I'd like to make sure the theorem isn't
obvious before I type out the proof. If I don't get any "that
theorem is obvious!" responses within a few days, I'll probably
type out the proof.
Here's asking vaguely for feedback,
Brad
By Brad Rodgers on Tuesday, April 23, 2002
- 01:31 am:
Looking at the theorem, I should probably phrase it,
given any real number r> 1, there are an infinite number of
integer n that satisfy...
just to make it more clear
By Dan Goodman on Tuesday, April 23,
2002 - 01:58 am:
I might be making a big mistake here, it's quite late, but
I think this theorem is, if not obvious, at least quite easy. Suppose what you
said was false, then there'd be an
and a natural number
such that for
any
. Agreed?
Apply the theorem with
to get
. Do this
times and add to get
. In other words,
.
(Actually, this step is slightly dodgy because
,
, etc.might not
be integers. I don't think this will matter though.)
This would give that
(do you know about big-
notation?).
But we know that this isn'ttrue because of the prime number theorem (
).
An elementary proof might be nicer though, since I appealed to the prime
number theorem to prove that.
I hope I haven't made any mistakes, I'd feel very silly.
By Michael Doré on Tuesday, April 23, 2002 - 02:11 am:
I'd certainly be very interested to see your
proof - this doesn't look at all obvious to me (though it is certainly obvious
if you replace
with
). Here is one way though. It is easy to see
that your condition being false would imply the existence of a positive
constant
such that
where
is the
th prime - so in
fact your result follows from the (reasonably well known) fact that the sum of
the reciprocals of the primes is divergent. This fact is derived by using the
result
(which is proved by considering Euler's
product for the zeta function). My guess is that your proof will also use this
in one form or other.
Note, we can get a stronger result using the prime number theorem (the prime
number theorem states
but the proof of this theorem is
very difficult). The prime number theorem implies that
as
for any fixed
. I think it is easy to show that for any
fixed
,
can be made arbitrarily large, using the same
technique as above, but proving the difference tends to infinity is probably
quite hard without PNT. One consequence of the fact that
as
is that not only is your statement true for infinitely many
, it is actually true for sufficiently high
. I'd be very interested to
see a first-principles proof of this fact, but it will certainly be very hard,
since this result implies asymptotic Bertrand which is itself hard to prove.
It would also be interesting to know exactly how high
has to be, for each
for your inequality to hold - this is one question PNT certainly won't be
able to answer!
By Brad Rodgers on Wednesday, April 24,
2002 - 11:02 pm:
Here's the proof:
Theorem 1: Given
and
both map from integers to integers (this needn't
be a one to one mapping e.g.
could have inputs
and could have
outputs
), and
,
;
,
,
if
for an infinite number of
and there are
only a finite number of exceptions to this inequality, then
converges for
.
Proof: assume
to be in the interval 0 to 1. Then
(i)
where
is the number of integer
that satisfy
, where
is the floor of
. We've required that
, where
the inequality is broken only a finite number of times. Assume that we are
currently not dealing with one of those times; where the inequality is satisfied
(1),
where I'm using
to represent the roof of
(smallest
integer not less than
).
As
is the smallest integer to satisfy
,
for
, and therefore,
, which implies that
is the smallest integer to satisfy that relation.
And, by the same logic,
is the largest integer to satisfy
. And, because
is monotonically increasing, all integers
between these two numbers satisfy this requirement,
.
Thus, by (1), there are only a finite number of integers such that
is
greater than
, and so, (i) is less than or equal to
where
is a finite constant composed of all the terms where (1) doesn't hold.
As this is convergent, our original sum is convergent.
I've never seen this theorem, but the theorem is pretty obvious and relatively
natural, if you think about it using an example. Also, in the theorem, I
haven't said anything about the function always being defined, which is
necessary, if only trivially.
Alright, using this theorem, let
,
, and
(note that
). Then the sum is
,
which isn't convergent. As the inverse of
is
, where
is
less than 1, we are given, by the contrapositive of the theorem,
,
where both
and
are less than 1 for an infinite number of
. This
implies that
,
for an infinite number of
. The theorem in my original post then follows
by replacing
with
,
with
, with
.
We can use theorem 1 again to prove an asymptotic version of
Bertrand's postulate (actually, wouldn't it be an asymptotic
version of a stronger theorem than Bertrand's postulate?), it
someone can find a slow enough function that diverges to
infinity.
Brad
By Michael Doré on Wednesday, April 24, 2002 - 11:22 pm:
Thanks for the explanation - it looks about the
same as my proof, but I'm a bit confused by the start. You imply that the
domain and range of
and
is some subset of the integers, yet you write
, which would seem to indicate
can be real valued. Also you write
implying that the domain of
is more than the integers - by this
do you just mean
is increasing?
By Brad Rodgers on Thursday, April 25,
2002 - 01:04 am:
The reason I write
is because I initially used the theorem for more
than just integer valued
, and that just sort of popped into my typing.
For all purposes of that post, you can just take off the brackets on
.
On
, they have to be there, although, for ease, you have to
assume that there is some curve connecting integer values of
. The way I
consider this would be similar to the gamma function and the factorial function
sort of interpolation, although we don't need to define the precise function
except at integers. This should answer your second question too;
,
means
is increasing, and though you could just consider this at integer
values, it's probably better to consider it with the interpolation sort of
factorial to gamma meaning.
Sorry if this is garbled,
Brad
By Brad Rodgers on Thursday, April 25,
2002 - 01:10 am:
I think I like your proof better, though. If nothing else, it
takes about 30 less lines to explain!
By Brad Rodgers on Thursday, April 25,
2002 - 03:09 am:
I've managed to cobble up a proof (or at least a scheme for a proof) along these
lines that
for
.
Using theorem 1, still assign
, but now, assign
, so that
. We know from theorem 1,
if
is divergent, what we want follows.
First off,
.
We also know (the above sum from
to
)
(A)
Here comes the part where I ask for help. Can someone prove, in an
elementary fashion, that the
th prime is less than the
th square
past some given
? This is obvious with the prime number theorem,
but I haven't had much luck without the prime number theorem. Go
ahead and assume this result though. Then
, which implies
. It's fairly easy to prove that
is divergent, and therefore,
is divergent, and what we want to prove follows rather
easily. By theorem 1,
!
But, this only works if someone can prove there are only a finite number of
exceptions to
. There seems to only be 1.
Brad
By Brad Rodgers on Thursday, April 25,
2002 - 03:11 am:
By the way, and then I have to work on more school work, it's
easy to prove that there are an infinite number of numbers
satisfying N2 > pN , otherwise the sum
of the reciprocals of primes would converge. It ends up it's a
lot harder to make this statement more exact, though.
By Brad Rodgers on Thursday, April 25,
2002 - 10:04 pm:
I've just realized my 3:09 post is complete idiocy. In it, I'm
summing from N+1 to 2N, for all N, and assuming this is the same
as summing all N. Please ignore it.
Brad
By Brad Rodgers on Friday, April 26, 2002
- 02:57 am:
I think I might have a different way to prove that
diverges though. The proof of this is similar to the proof that
the sum of reciprocals of primes diverges.
Define
as the number of
, such that
, not divisible
by any prime
where
. Note that we can write
as
, where
contains no squared factor. We only want
where
By Michael Doré on Friday, April 26, 2002 - 01:55 pm:
Brad: it isn't true that
diverges. By PNT,
, and
is a convergent series (just form an
estimate for the difference between the
th and
th partial sums).
Have you noticed that what we're trying to prove (
for all
) is equivalent to
? Here is why:
as
for all natural
,
as
for all natural
and
,
for
sufficiently high
for all natural
and
,
for
sufficiently high
for all
,
as
for all
,
as
By Brad Rodgers on Friday, April 26, 2002
- 09:39 pm:
I see your proof of convergence, and it can be made even more
rigorous by using Tchebychef's theorem (I doubt that's how you
spell it, sorry), but I still don't catch where my proof goes
awry.
It'd be nice to know, because if we use the PLT (or Tchebychef) we get
is divergent, and I think the same
sort of proof that I used to "prove"
divergent
can be used to prove this.
Brad
By Brad Rodgers on Saturday, April 27,
2002 - 08:27 pm:
Looking at theorem 1, now, I think I see that it can't be used to prove that
; it can only prove that for some values of
,
this is true. In other words, it proves that there is a sequence
with
tending to infinity such that
.
There is a simple proof that
, though:
implies
is
convergent, so
divergent implies
. Putting
, we get
.
As the limit is obviously not greater than 1, it must be equal to 1.
By Michael Doré on Saturday, April 27, 2002 - 08:53 pm :
It's not that simple. I agree that if
does tend to a limit as
, then this limit must be 1, but how
do you know it converges to anything at all? What you can prove esaily is
- in other words
gets arbitrarily close to
1. This is easily shown to be equivalent to the statement you make in the first
paragraph, that is
for some sequence
.
The stronger result
is equivalent to showing that
, and it is this that seems very hard without PNT.
By Michael Doré on Saturday, April 27, 2002 - 09:14 pm :
I just read your proof of the 26 April, that
diverges. It has some very good ideas in it
- especially the way you used combinatorial techniques to get an estimate for
sums involving the primes. I think the problem simply comes in the final
inequality at the last stage - I think it's the wrong way round.
By Brad Rodgers on Tuesday, April 30, 2002
- 10:42 pm:
To be fair, the concept isn't an entirely original idea, Hardy
and Wright use a similar concept to prove that the sum of
reciprocals of primes diverges.
I still don't see why the last inequality should be the other way
around though. We have
,
and dividing by x then adding one should give the required
result.
Brad