| Yatir
Halevi |
Let z1 +z2 +...+zn be complex numbers. If z1 +z2 +...+zn =0 and z1 2 +z2 2 +...+zn 2 =0 then is it true that: z1 5 +z2 5 +...+zn 5 =0 Yatir |
||||||||
| Brad
Rodgers |
I don't think so, but I won't give away an exception for those that are still trying it. (A hint: consider the nth root of -1). It might be true, though, when n is not a multiple of 5; I haven't had a chance to think over it, but I'll try over the weekend. Brad |
||||||||
| Andre
Rzym |
I havn't worked it through, but you might think about expressing sums of squares and powers of 5 in terms of: sum of the z's sum of the z's taken 2 at a time sum of the z's taken 3 at a time etc. and then think about polynomial equations... Andre |
||||||||
| David
Loeffler |
Brad, once one has the base solution for case n=5, one can just pad it with zeros to get any n. David |
||||||||
| Demetres
Christofides |
It might not be true if n is not equal to 5. For example consider x1 = 1 x2 = -1 x3 = i x4 = -i. Then x1 + x2 + x3 + x4 = 0 x1 2 + x2 2 + x3 2 + x4 2 = 1 + 1 - 1 - 1 =0 x1 5 + x2 5 + x3 5 + x4 5 = 1 - 1 + i - i =0 (as required) but for example x1 8 + x2 8 + x3 8 + x4 8 = 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 4 Demetres |
||||||||
| Yatir
Halevi |
Actually I've proved that it is true for n> =5 sometimes it is and in other times it isn't. Andre, I already used a method like yours to prove it for n< =3, I just couldn't find out how to prove what are z's takes 3 at a time is equal to. So I proved the n=4 case differently. Yatir |
||||||||
| David
Loeffler |
How are people proving the result for n=4? I have a proof but it is quite difficult and requires a bit of the theory of symmetric functions. (In this case Yatir's original statement is true.) David |
||||||||
| Yatir
Halevi |
Mine just requires some nasty algebra, Solve the two equations for z1 and z2 and treat z3 and z4 as constants, then take the fifth power of the answers you got to z1 and z2 add the fifth powers of z3 and z4 and you'll get 0. Yatir |
||||||||
| Demetres
Christofides |
My proof also requires symmetric polynomials making use that s1 and s2 are 0. [Basically there is a recursive formula to find the pk where pk = z1 k + ... + zn k ] Result true for n< =4 and false for n> =5 Demetres |
||||||||
| David
Loeffler |
Yes; that was how I did it too; I actually calculated the formula for p5 in terms of s1 ...s4 for n=4, but afterwards realised that this was unecessary - one merely needs to know that it exists. David |
||||||||
| Yatir
Halevi |
I guess you two are talking about the Newton-Gerard equations, right? Demetres, how did you prove it for n=4? And how did you prove that it isn't true for n> =5, I proved that it isn't true n=5 if one of the values isn't 0. David, what did you mean by that? Thanks, Yatir |
||||||||
| David
Loeffler |
Yes, you can use Newton-Girard here, but there are other methods that are easier to remember (there is an algorithmic method for expressing arbitrary symmetric polynomials in terms of the elementary symmetrics). The reason I said the exact expansion isn't necessary is that the expression for p5 in terms of s1, ..., s4 for n=4, which must exists, is going to consist of a sum of monomials si1j1si2j2... Now the degree of this must be 5, so for each term we must have
. It is easily seen that since ik £ 4, each term must involve at least one of s1 and s2, and we know these are both zero. David |
||||||||
| Demetres
Christofides |
Yatir, using the Newton-Girard equations and all the given information I got
. (with a possible minus in front) This can take any value we want (for n ³ 5). Do you know why? Demetres |
||||||||
| Yatir
Halevi |
Sorry it took me so much time to answer Thanks David, What is the probability that you have a link that describes this alogrithmic method?! Demetres, That is exactly what I got. A hint would help... Yatir |
||||||||
| David
Loeffler |
I don't know of a link; a quick Google search brought up a proof which was hopelessly wrong, so I've written up one of my own instead, based on the one my Groups, Rings and Fields lecturer gave last week. Suppose we have an arbitrary symmetric polynomial f(x1,...,xn). We can divide the terms in the polynomial into sets which are essentially the same monomial under permutations of the variables. I'm going to write [r1,r2,...,rn] for the sum of all terms of the form x1rs(1) x2rs(2) ... xnrs(n) where the sum is taken over the n! permutations s of (1...n), and without loss of generality r1 ³ r2 ³ ... ³ rn. I shall call a term of this form a monomial (this is slightly different from the standard notation, so beware.) OK, that probably doesn't make much sense; what I mean is that, for example, [4,2,1]=x14 x22 x3 + x14 x2 x32 + x12 x24 x3 + x12 x2 x34 + x1 x24 x12 + x1 x22 x14 (Note that by this definition [1,1,1]=6x1 x2 x3; the coefficient actually isn't all that important here.) Right. Now the first step in the proof is to realise that every symmetric polynomial in x1 ... xn can be written as a sum of terms [r1,r2,...,rn] with r1 ³ r2 ³ ... etc. Now, let's put an order on these terms. I will say that [r1,...,rn] > [s1,...,sn] if r1 > s1, or r1=s1 and r2 > s2, and so on; this is the lexicographic ordering. Crucially it is a total ordering; given r=[r1 ... rn] and s=[s1...sn], we either have r > s, s > r or r and s are identical. (This is where the proof I found online at PlanetMath.org is wrong: the ordering it defines is not total, and thus entirely useless.) The significance of this total ordering property is that each symmetric polynomial has a unique highest term in this ordering. Consider an expression of the form e1 t1 e2t2... entn where the ei's are the elementary symmetric polynomials. This is evidently itself symmetric. What is the highest term in it (with respect to the above ordering)? It is not too difficult to see that it is in fact [t1+...+tn,t2+...+tn,...,tn]. So given an arbitrary symmetric polynomial f, let the highest monomial in it be l[r1,r2,...,rn]. Consider f-le1r1-r2 e2r2-r3...enrn. This is another symmetric polynomial, and crucially the highest monomial in it is lower than [r1,...,rn] as we have knocked out this term, and as noted above the highest monomial is unique. At this point it is tempting to say 'done by induction'. However there is one last point to check: that the monomial ordering is actually a well-ordering, one in which each set has a least member. Otherwise we could keep on inducting downwards infinitely many times without getting anywhere. But this is easy to check as there are only finitely many monomials less that [r1,...,rn] for any fixed r1... rn. (This is why we needed to adopt the convention that r1 ³ r2 etc; otherwise this bit does not hold.) So we really are done. Phew. David |
||||||||
| David
Loeffler |
Incidentally, here's a challenge for you. Using the algorithm I gave, express x4 y3 + x4 z3 + y4 x3 + y4 z3 + z4 x3 + z4 y3 , that is [4,3,0], in terms of the symmetric functions e1 , e2 , e3 . (You might want to grab yourself a copy of MuPAD or something similar. And don't use polylib::representByElemSym(), that would be cheating.) David |
||||||||
| Demetres
Christofides |
Yatir, if the hint you are asking is why we can have any value we want (for n> =5) then think of polynomial equations. You may find this useful: lexicographical ordering = dictionary order Demetres |
||||||||
| Yatir
Halevi |
David, Thanks! After I over-came the terminology (What did you mean by "I don't know" in the first line...). I got, I think, most of the main idea. But I think I need to see an example to fully understand the algorithm. Care to coach me through a^3+b^3+c^3? Demetres, I think I got it now! You mean that since the coefficient that is equal to S5 , in the polynomial having z1 ...zn has the roots, is visible (exists...is non zero!!!) it can get different values....including 0. Yatir |
||||||||
| Yatir
Halevi |
Demetres, can this be extended to n< 5...? Because there is no coefficient that is equal to S5 then it must be zero... Yatir |
||||||||
| David
Loeffler |
Let's take x1 = a, x2 = b, x3 = c (so we know how to apply the lexicographic ordering). OK. The highest monomial in a3 + b3 + c3 = 1/2 [3,0,0] is a3 , so we start by subtracting (a+b+c)3 . We then get a3 + b3 + c3 - (a+b+c)3 = 3[2,1,0] = [1,1,1] So we'd like to deal with the [2,1,0] term first, and we do this by adding 3(a+b+c)(ab + bc + ca), leaving 6abc. This can be dealt with easily! So we have a3 + b3 + c3 = (a+b+c)3 - 3(a+b+c)(ab+bc+ca)+3abc. (Of course, the proverbial interested reader will be aware that the normal proof of 3-variable AM-GM requires the identity a3 + b3 + c3 - 3abc = (a+b+c)(a2 + b2 + c2 - ab - bc - ca). From this getting to the form I just gave is not hard.) David |
||||||||
| Yatir
Halevi |
Hmmm... Why is 3[2,1,0]=[1,1,1]? What I don't get is how you choose the symmetric polynomial to be subtracted for the original... why (a+b+c)^3, 3(a+b+c)(ab+bc+ca)...Natrualy, I can see it works. But If there is no algorithmic procedure to find them, this algorithm will be good as any other (there probably is, but I just didn't get it yet ) Yatir |
||||||||
| David
Loeffler |
Sorry! Oops! At least one equals here shuld be a minus sign. The formula should read a3 + b3 + c3 - (a+b+c)3 = -3[2,1,0] - [1,1,1]. The [...] are all distinct (modulo reorderings). As for which symmetric function you subtract off, that's exactly what the whole lexicographic ordering bit is for. You kill the term highest in that ordering, using a combination of symmetric functions for which that is also the highest term so you won't get terms appearing even higher up. In this case this is successively [3,0,0], [2,1,0] and [1,1,1]. But in this case it is very obvious which order to do the terms in. That was why I set you an example which was hard enough that you can't easily do it by inspection. David |
||||||||
| Yatir
Halevi |
David, So the algorith doesn't instruct you how to build the sum of symmetric functions, this is mostly your job. What it does is help you keep track of what you've done and check that you haven't done any mistakes (gone to higher degrees). I thought that it is an algorithm that lets you build the sum blindly (with out acutally needing to know what f is equal to...) Yatir |
||||||||
| David
Loeffler |
No! That is exactly what the algorithm does do! At each stage you have a number of terms which you can place exactly in order lexicographically. Then you kill the unique highest one, which can be done in exactly one way without introducing higher terms. All that I proved above is that this will eventually terminate with zero remainder. The algorithm is entirely deterministic and can be implemented on a computer without difficulty. David |
||||||||
| David
Loeffler |
OK. Here's how to do it in practice, for a really nasty 3-variable symmetric polynomial: [6,2,0] in my notation. Start with [6,2,0]. Then subtract off e1 6-2 e2 2-0 e3 0 , i.e. (x1 + x2 + x3 )4 (x1 x2 + x2 x3 + x3 x1 )2 . This gives you a horrible mess. If you collect terms and write it in terms of []'s, it's -[6,1,1] -4[5,3,0] -3[4,4,0] -14[5,2,1] -32[4,3,1] -40[3,3,2] -53/2 [4,2,2] Now obviously [6,1,1] is the highest of these terms in my ordering, so I'm going to want to add on 2e1 6-1 e2 1-1 e3 1 .* This leaves us with -4[5,3,0] -3[4,4,0] -12[4,3,1] -4[5,2,1] -13/2 [4,2,2] - 10[3,3,2] Now [5,3,0] comes above [5,2,1], so we deal with it first, by adding 4e1 2 e2 3 . This leaves [4,4,0] +8[5,2,1] +32[4,3,1] + 59/2 [4,2,2] + 52[3,3,2] Now [5,2,1] is the highest term so we subtract off 8e1 3 e2 e3 leaving [4,4,0] +8[4,3,1] + 3/2 [4,2,2] + 4[3,3,2] and we now deal with [4,4,0] by subtracting 2e2 4 to leave -9/2 [4,2,2] - 8[3,3,2] and we can now add 9e1 2 e3 2 to get just [3,3,2], which is precisely 2e2 e3 2 . So we have an expression [6,2,0] = e1 4 e2 2 - 2e1 5 e3 - 4e1 2 e2 3 + 8e1 3 e2 e3 + 2e2 4 - 9e1 2 e3 2 + 2e2 e3 2 . (The problem with demonstrating this algorithm is that if the problem is simple enough to do by hand, then it's easy to spot which terms to hit without messing around with monomial orderings; so any example which really requires you to use the algorithm properly will need you to use a computer algebra system at some point. The algorithm's not actually remotely useful until you feed it into a computer.) *(Remember that when some of the exponents are the same, my square bracket symbol generates a leading coefficient other than 1. This is inconvenient here, but crucial in the theory of inequalities where I stole the symbol from.) David |
||||||||
| Yatir
Halevi |
Now I get it! I didn't fully get what you meant by e1 e2 ... (I thought they were just any symmetric polynomials...).. Is there any special method to choose l? Or do I just check what fits...? Thanks! Yatir |
||||||||
| Yatir
Halevi |
Disrigard my last message! Briliant Algorithm. Here is the solution to your challenge: [4,3,0]=e1 e2 3 -3e1 2 e2 e3 -e2 2 e3 +5e1 e3 2 Yatir |
||||||||
| David
Loeffler |
Yes, that's right. David |
||||||||
| Yatir
Halevi |
David, I'm trying to use "fix" the algorithm and remove its dependency on an algebra program. By predicting what the expression will be at each stage by using your notation. The main probelm is finding the value of the coefficient: For instance: e1 e2 is (without coefficients) [1,0,0]*[1,1,0], now find-out the different values when we add the "vectors" (not perserving orders of the numbers) we get [2,1,0] and [1,1,1] which are exactly the symmetric polynomials the pop up in the expansion... And ideas? Yatir |
||||||||
| David
Loeffler |
One idea: give up, it doesn't work. David |
||||||||
| Arun
Iyer |
David, Nice algorithm!! i understood everything else pretty easily but i still don't know how to calculate lambda?? love arun |
||||||||
| Yatir
Halevi |
Arun, Lets say you have 3 of kind of a this monomial [3,1,1] with a coefficient of 6 then we know that the our notation should read 3*[3,1,1] because there are supposed to be 6 of this kind ([3,1,1 ] is equal to [3,1 ,1]). Now, how to find lambda? Is the expansion of e1 2 e3 (The simple symmetric polynomial that has [3,1,1] as its highest term) has 3 of a kind of the monomial [3,1,1] with coefficient 1. So we need to subtract 6*e1 2 e3 In order to get rid of the highest term. Yatir |
||||||||
| Arun
Iyer |
ooook!!!!so some mental arithmetic goes into the calculation of lambda!!! understood!!!Thanks Yatir! love arun |
||||||||
| Marcos |
This is a bit of a delayed question but what are the e1 ,e2 ,etc... I've been trying to follow what you guys have been doing but I still don't get it especially after Yatir's comment: "I thought they were just any symmetric polynomials..." Marcos |
||||||||
| Demetres
Christofides |
e1(x1,...,xn)=x1+...+xn
... en(x1,...,xn)=x1...xn Warning: You might also see these with a multiplicative factor of (-1)n. Demetres |
||||||||
| Marcos |
Ohhhh... Now I get it.... Thanks, Marcos |